A Talk with Jiaozi (CCTV Interview in Chinese, January 30, 2025)

Host: Wow, that was stunning! This pushes Chinese animated films to a whole new level, in a different way.

Jiaozi: I think it's mainly because the audience is very tolerant of domestic animation. We ourselves know that we still have many shortcomings.

Host: That's because your standards are too high. But for the audience, I think it was amazing!

Jiaozi: The most important thing is to focus on doing your own thing well.

Host: We hope that these different forces in the film industry can continue this trend and keep it going for a lifetime.

It took everyone a full five years to wait for Ne Zha 1. We thought Ne Zha 2 might be faster, but unexpectedly, it was another five years. Why did it take so long?

Jiaozi: If you want to create a good work, you have to polish it. There's no way to save time on this. When we started working on Ne Zha 2, our main goal was to make the work as good as possible. As we went along, we realized that because our requirements were so high for every step, the time spent also exceeded my expectations. Originally, I probably had a rough idea in my mind that it would take about three years, but as we progressed, we couldn't stop. And everyone involved in this project was actually very dedicated because they also loved this project. Everyone wanted to be the best they could be and do their work to the extreme.

Producer: Quality is paramount; we can't let the audience down. Everyone wants to see good things. So, the whole team had to put in extra effort. Some of the special effects shots were so difficult that we had to jump up to reach that ceiling. We can take a look at the films currently on the market. Are there any similar films? If not, and we have it, then we are unique.

(Footage of the iron chain scene from Ne Zha 2 appears, for which the production team had serious disagreements with the director.)

We couldn't get through to Jiaozi. He said no, he wanted that visual effect, that feeling for the audience. Due to time constraints, we secretly called Light Chaser Animation. "Hey, where are you? We've been talking about the chains." Adding the chains would jeopardize the schedule. "Can you talk to Jiaozi again?" The result was: they had to be done.

Jiaozi: Those iron chains were something I absolutely couldn't compromise on. The sea demons were trapped in the undersea prison, and they needed the Dragon King to lend them his troops to besiege Chentang Pass. They harbored rebellious intentions, and at the same time, the Dragon King could hold their lives in his hands. This is the underlying core logic of the main storyline. If we compromised on this, if they didn't have the chains on their bodies, wouldn't they be free as soon as they came out of the void rift?

Visual Effects Supervisor: In the process of pushing forward, we actually tested many versions repeatedly, and the early performance was not ideal. There were many obvious problems that could not be solved, including clipping, which sometimes affected the composition of our shots. And when you have too many of them, these chains also create a lot of computing pressure.

In the end, we divided them into several different types. One type was for the crowd, which could fly in the air. Another type was for the distant view, which hung along the city wall. And then there were the close-ups, where they had to fight with the soldiers of Chentang Pass. After jumping up, the chains would swing. This was not just a crude solution to the problem of clipping. The director wanted it to be chaotic but orderly, and also beautiful, like hair, swaying slightly in the air with the wind.

Thousands of troops, with so many sea demons, each with a chain wrapped around their body. None of the special effects artists had ever encountered such a task before, so there would be a very long period of trial and error. This was a research and development task, and the time for research and development is uncontrollable. This was actually a technical challenge for our team. We brought all our smart teams together to solve the problems of texture and quantity, repeatedly polishing it technically and visually. This one element alone, from its production to the final approval by the director, took us almost four months.

Host: Aren't you too harsh on yourself, demanding too much?

Jiaozi: The audience has such high expectations for Ne Zha 2, and the expectations have been raised so high. So many resources, manpower, and material resources have been used to make Ne Zha 2. This opportunity cannot be wasted. We must do our best to achieve the best effect and present it to the audience.

Host: During the production of Ne Zha 2, were you always under pressure from the audience?

Jiaozi: There must be pressure. Right after Ne Zha 1, when I was on the roadshow, everyone said, "We're looking forward to when Ne Zha 2 will be released." The pressure came immediately. So at that time, I didn't even have time to be happy, and I immediately fell into anxiety. So I myself couldn't figure out when Ne Zha 2 actually started scripting. Maybe when Ne Zha 1 was being scripted, some hooks were already buried there. So this process of polishing the script also took a long, long time.

But during this process, I tried my best to push these pressures, these objective pressures, aside, and I tried my best to devote myself to my subjective creative desires and impulses.

Host: Will you push the pressure onto others and pass it on to the team?

Jiaozi: But there's no way around it. I also hope to give all these production staff more time to truly unleash their potential. And from my life experience, I have also found that many times potential is forced out.

Just like when I first joined the military training in high school, I thought that I could do at most 20 push-ups, that was my limit. The drill instructor asked me to do 30. He said he knew I could do it, and I did 30. Then he said, "Five more!" Haha, "Five more!" In the end, I did 50. I only then re-recognized myself. In fact, many times our own limits are what we imagine, what we fantasize. Our abilities actually completely exceed our imagination. So many of us need someone to give us a push later on. After being pushed, they realize how powerful they are.

Host: A feature film should be an industrialized process system. Did you feel that this might be an impossible task at the time?

Jiaozi: There's a saying that goes, "When you're out there," the most important thing is "to be out there." Once you've reached this step, you'll find that you can always find ways to solve problems, and you'll meet more like-minded people. Everyone will complement each other's strengths and weaknesses. You're responsible for this, and I'm responsible for that. So many people come together, and they can always carry things through. It's not a one-man battle.

Host: At that time, I remember you said that when you were creating Ne Zha 1, you cut a lot of shots, which might have been a regret at the time. Did Ne Zha 2 make up for these regrets?

Jiaozi: Ne Zha 2, if any shots were cut, it was because of time constraints, not because we couldn't complete the special effects. Even the shots with the highest difficulty, we overcame the pressure to achieve them.

Host: During the creative process, did you encounter any particularly unforgettable experiences?

Jiaozi: Because our audience group is relatively wide in age, we also have to take care of the viewing experience of some children. And too long a duration is not very good.

Host: This is actually a very painful decision-making process.

Jiaozi: They're all labors of love. In See Through, I used a paper-rolling technique, an artistic form of expression, to achieve the effect. For this short film, it was its strength, a novel artistic expression. But this time, for our ending battle scene, I wanted to achieve a breakthrough. Because in the past, I'd seen many mythological works where the heavenly soldiers and generals, or the demons, when they fought, they often just moved the flat battle to the sky, spreading out a sea of clouds, and the two armies were still in a two-dimensional formation. There's actually a lot of room for imagination here. It should be three-dimensional, with an added axis. So in my imagination, it's more like a battle between two flocks of birds. So in the end, I thought of the feeling of surging waves, of surging crowds, of repeated beating and colliding, like in See Through. So I started to think about how to visualize this idea. This was also a difficult point in the creation of Ne Zha 2.

Because at the beginning, the storyboard artist was completely lost. Seeing my script written like this, he didn't know how to start. The special effects team was also confused. Such a large volume, and these characters would collide together, what kind of texture would it be, and what special effects details would there be? For them, it was also unimaginable. The most difficult of our special effects, all the time was spent on research and development. We had to create something that the audience had never seen before, that could create a strong visual impact, or that could have a very novel artistic expression, and could give the audience more aesthetic stimulation. Only such things did we feel were worth doing.

But after the realization of this idea, there's still room for further development. If we expand our thinking, I think there should be some logic, some tactics, in the way a troop is organized in a three-dimensional space.

Host: From this point of view, this brings even more anticipation for the subsequent Ne Zha 3.

Jiaozi: Now thinking about Ne Zha 3, with so many pits to fill, I feel a sense of despair, haha. But, how should I put it? I and the team have always been saying that every work should be created as if it were your last. Don't leave yourself any possibility for breakthroughs. And after you cross this high mountain, when you look back, you will find that it is nothing more than that, and everyone's abilities have improved. The next step is to challenge your new limits.

Host: In the creative process, what do you think is the most painful thing? Like, the staff don't fully understand what you're thinking?

Jiaozi: The most painful thing for a director is to make all the staff who work with you understand what you are thinking. There is a methodology for this, but the process is still one of repeated polishing, which is very tedious. It's a constant process of explaining your ideas, even drawing some sketches. When we were making Ne Zha 1, I would draw more. When we were making Ne Zha 2, as the scale of the work kept increasing, I didn't even have time to draw. Because there were too many problems to deal with. Even the fastest way to express our ideas, the storyboard, it would take him several days to draw it well, and then let me see if it matches my ideas, and then I would give him feedback. "No, change the direction." That would be another few days.

Host: I think you are a very meticulous person.

Jiaozi: There's no way around it. I think to be a director, to do artistic creation, you have to be meticulous. Definitely. Like the previous Ne Zha, the reason why we wanted to make this series was also because I was deeply influenced by the Shanghai Animation Film Studio's Ne Zha Conquers the Dragon King. I also thought about why these Chinese animations they made at that time had such a strong national style, and why their artistic level was so high. When we make Ne Zha now, it is also because after all, after watching so many excellent artistic works, in my creation, I will unconsciously absorb them all. I am considered lucky that the things I like happen to be in line with the preferences of a wider audience.

Host: What stage do you think the Chinese animation film market is in now?

Jiaozi: China's economic development has only taken off in the past few decades, and the rise and increase in the number of cinemas has not happened overnight. It has naturally come to fruition, and only today do we have this environment. I think this kind of thing is natural. When the national strength develops to a certain stage, when the people's artistic and living needs reach a certain stage, there will naturally be such a market. At the same time, we are also fortunate to have encountered a good era, so we have such an opportunity to do what we like, to devote ourselves wholeheartedly to creation, and ultimately be able to get rewarded. As long as there are more and more successful cases like this, I believe that more and better creators and more and better works will emerge in the future. This is a trend.

Host: The special effects production was not done by international professional teams. Is it because the effects they gave were different from what you wanted?

Jiaozi: There were differences. And like this time, we originally hoped to find some international production teams to help us complete some of the key shots. But after outsourcing and trying, we found that the effect was not ideal. Even if we find some top visual effects production teams, because we are a Chinese project, they will inevitably have arrogance and prejudice towards us. And it's not a creative mindset, it's a contract-taking mindset. Maybe it's a top studio, but they may also use second- or third-rate personnel to complete our project. So after we outsourced, many shots were often unsatisfactory. In the end, we still took it back and our domestic team worked hard to polish it and take the lead, and finally achieved better results.

Host: Do you think Chinese animated films can go global in the future?

Jiaozi: In this process, we also found that the mountains we used to look up to were actually climbed step by step through perseverance. It's just that we used to have this sense of awe and didn't dare to embark on this path. So in the end, we found that we still have this potential. Nothing is new in the world, and all difficult things are done by people. So, let's just keep at it. In the process of perseverance, we also realized that we are still in a learning stage when it comes to the powerful and advanced industrial processes and technologies of foreign countries. The gap is definitely narrowing. If Chinese culture truly wants to go global, it still comes from the author, the work itself, whether the initial script, story, characters, and other things can touch audiences all over the world. These are not things that can be outsourced. So now, my first step is to create something that I like, and then domestic audiences also like it, and gradually I will make this thing better and better, and I will continue to refine my skills. I believe that one day, it will give birth to some new things, some new connotations, some new souls, so that the whole world can appreciate it.

Host: Can you share some of your personal experiences? I've heard it said that you were living off your parents for three years before you created your first work. Is that a fair assessment?

Jiaozi: It's a true story. At that time, my father had already passed away, and I lived with my mother in Chengdu. She was also retired. My father was quite strict with me. But when I look back, I find that many times I was trying to do things to prove myself to him. So being able to get to where I am today, the pressure of his fatherly love has also greatly contributed to my career. But at the same time, when I was preparing to change careers and learn 3D animation on my own, my mother was very tolerant of me, even standing from my perspective. I think it would be difficult for me to do this if I were a parent.

Host: My mother may not understand, but she can be tolerant.

Jiaozi: She believed in me. She knew that I was not a frivolous person, and that I was serious and down-to-earth in everything I did. And I had been quite self-disciplined in my studies since I was a child, so I wouldn't make such an absurd choice.

Host: When you were making your first work, did you think of this result? That you would keep quiet for 3 years and then amaze everyone with a single feat? Could you have imagined this result?

Jiaozi: Some things I thought of, and some things I didn't. The animation festivals that I really aimed to participate in, in the end, I found that because I didn't have a mentor to guide me, I didn't know that the positioning of these animation festivals was not in this direction. So after submitting, it was like a stone sinking into the sea. But it unexpectedly became popular online first. I didn't expect netizens to like it. This was something I didn't expect.

Host: Everyone is too familiar with the story of Nezha, right? But your script for Nezha is completely rewritten. The father and mother are full of tolerance and love.

Jiaozi: Because all works will have reflections of the author's own life experiences. Because my family is actually very harmonious, and I was able to embark on this path thanks to my parents' support and tolerance. So I hope to incorporate my own true feelings and insights into my work. From this came the subsequent plot developments, which are like a parallel universe to the original Investiture of the Gods. It has infinite possibilities. But we also incorporated some of the classic scenes and classic segments from the original Investiture of the Gods that we are all familiar with, adding our own modern interpretations and creativity. I think this is a very good form of creation.

Host: You love movies so much. Do you ever regret it? Like, if I hadn't chosen to study pharmacy in college, I could have had four years to more completely learn film and animation production.

Jiaozi: I never regret any choice I've made, because all choices are neither right nor wrong. Just like in Ne Zha 1, the theme is "My fate is in my hands, not heaven's." If I hadn't chosen this path, if I had become a pharmacist, if I had become a medical worker, if I could save lives and heal the wounded, and save many people, that could also be a very good choice.

Host: So whatever path you take in the end is a predetermined fate. And you are also considered a lucky person, finally returning to the choice you love most.

Jiaozi: Indeed, precisely because of this luck and the support and recognition of the audience, we cannot leave any room for retreat when we create works. We must always give our all.